StrategyTalk.org

Dionysus

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum so forgive me if this stuff has been discussed here before.

It is generally stated as fact that Saddam used chemical weapons against his own people and this is often tied to statements about genocide and the Kurds. Is all of this based on the incident at Halabjah in 1988? I haven't heard or read anything about other events. As far as I understand the Halabjah event occurred during a battle between Iraqi and Iranian troops in which both sides used gas. Some intelligence reports (including the CIA) believed it was more likely Iranian gas and claimed that the residents had been evacuated but had returned and were then killed. It seems from these reports that the Kurds killed in this battle were likely "collateral damage" as the US would call it rather than some deliberate massacre of innocent civilians.

Have I missed some vital information or event? Where does the "using WMD on his own people" line come from if not from this event?

JLK · Joined: 17 Apr 2002 Posts: 4024 Location: East Coast USA

First of all, welcome to the forum. It's nice to have you here.

I do not have a lot of factual knowledge about the incident, but I did read that Saddam Hussein claimed that it was the Iranians who gassed the Kurds after his capture. These days I am not sure who is more credible, Saddam Hussein or the Pentagon. I would be interested to learn more about it.

FC Mellon · Joined: 15 Apr 2002 Posts: 4477 Location: SoCal

Dionysus wrote:

StratGirl · Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 2365 Location: USA

No, Dionysus, we haven't discussed this question on ST as far as I recall.

When I google Halabjah, there seem to be several articles on the gassing of the Kurds, perhaps from different viewpoints. I don't have time to check them out right now.

Mustang · Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 501 Location: USA

Iranian Revolutionary Guard troops crossed the Iraqi border with the assistance of Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga and had temporary control of the town of Halabja, but the Iranians withdrew after a short period of time. Saddam hit the town with CW bombs from aircraft in revenge. I've actually seen a video of the airstrike (have a copy of it at home) - someone on the outskirts of town had a camera filming the aircraft as they flew over. I believe it is the only film in existence of an actual chemical weapons strike.

There is also extensive photographic and video evidence of the results of the strike that were taken by a number of reporters. At the time, our government denied that chemical weapons were used by Iraq and tried to downplay the incident as much as possible - we were, of course, supporting Iraq against Iran in those days.

(BTW, in a unique bit of historical coincidence, the attack on Halabja took place on the 20th anniversary of the My Lai massacre)

But Halabja, althought it was the most terrible incident in terms of numbers killed, was certainly not the only instance of chemical weapons being used against the Kurds. From '87 to '88 chemical weapons were used in at least 60 instances against the Kurds - almost all during the Anfal operation. The atrocities committed during the Anfal campaign - including the CW strikes - are well documented and have been extensively investigated.

This makes for interesting reading: Genocide in Iraq: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds

StratGirl · Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 2365 Location: USA

Photo from the State Department site:

The caption is "Gas bombing of the town of Halabjah in 1988, seen from a distance."

With only one dark smoke cloud, the other wispy clouds look like they are from something like tear-gas canisters (not much explosive). But I couldn't confirm that this is Halabjah or who dropped the canisters. Just that this photo agrees with Mustang's that photos were taken.

Dionysus · Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:30 pm Post subject:

StratGirl · Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 2365 Location: USA

Mustang · Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 501 Location: USA

The two links I'm posting are to an article and Senate testimony by Dr. Christine Gosden, a British geneticist who visited Halabja in 1998. More than the attack itself, the discussion of the long-term effects of CW on the attack's survivors caught my attention.

Why I Went, What I Saw

Testimony of Dr. Gosden Before the Senate Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government

Edit: Gosden Video Link

CBC News: The Fifth Estate - The Forgotten People

Dionysus · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:46 pm Post subject:

Mustang,
This gets more and more interesting. The links you posted seem very convincing and simply state in a matter of fact way which agents the Iraqis used and provide many references but nothing tells us how they know what was used or how they know the details of the attack. Instead these are simply stated as if uncontestable. We have to remember that the Kurds hated Saddam and therefore their testimony is not necessarily reliable.

Anyway, it does appear that there were troops in Halabja when the attack occurred meaning that it was not simply a revenge attack against the civilians of the town. There is nothing particularly unusual about the incident apart from the use of chemical weapons on a large scale.

The other remarkable thing about the US government using this incident as an example of how horrific Saddam was is that Rumsfeld personally went to Baghdad and met with Saddam shortly after this attack in 1988 with a mission to strengthen ties between the US and Iraq. Saddam was so horrific that we wanted to become even better friends with him. Just our kind of guy like many other brutal mass murderers around the world who we call our allies.