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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: |
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(BBC)
| Quote: | X-rays on ex-Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, who is ill in hospital in London, have shown up unusual objects that he apparently swallowed.
A source at University College Hospital told the BBC there were three objects of dense matter in his intestines.
The hospital said his condition deteriorated overnight and he is now "very serious" in intensive care.
Anti-terror police have previously said that Mr Litvinenko, 43, was "deliberately" poisoned.
Round object
It is not clear whether the objects are the cause of his illness, and the hospital has refused to comment on this aspect.
The X-ray ordered on Tuesday afternoon revealed a round object - possibly a package - about the size of a two pence piece in his left abdomen, and similar sized objects in his colon and small bowel.
One of the objects may have ruptured.
Their position implies that they were ingested but it is not clear what the objects are, how or when they entered his body, or whether they are connected to his illness. |
... and his symptoms had previously been reported - by toxicologist Professor John Henry of University College Hospital - to be indicative of severe radiation poisoning: grave damage to bone marrow and blood cells.
...
Even before this news broke, I'd been starting to think that Litvinenko may well have been messing around, for one surreptitious reason or another, with highly radioactive substances or objects. Then "something went wrong", as a result of which he himself became so seriously contaminated he had to seek urgent medical help ... which of course entailed explaining to the hospital how the heck he got into that state! So he tried to use his sushi-bar meeting with his Italian contact Scaramella to construct a cover-up story that could "explain away" his radiation-poisoning symptoms.
The discovery of swallowed "solid objects" (including one resembling a "package") - if true - would certainly seem to point in the direction of some kind of trafficking, but raises at least as many questions - some EXTREMELY disquieting - as it answers.
....
P.S. Just read that another of the hospital's medical directors has now come out with a statement that not only the radiation-damage reports but the objects-in-intestine reports must be considered unfounded/inconclusive/whatever... so the latest official-official hospital statement is that "we are still unclear as to the cause of his condition"... and I'd say they're likely to "officially" remain so?
Which to me, probably means that the UK body ultimately responsible for investigating the case has now - not surprisingly - issued an autoritative high-up "soft-pedal" call for extreme discretion with the press from hospital staff and authorities.
_________________
“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish
Last edited by parvati_roma on Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: |
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1. Three two-pence-sized pieces of enriched uranium aren't anywhere near enough for a bomb. You'd need literally scores of people doing this to get a bomb. This much of anything is hardly worth smuggling this way, unless Litvinenko was planning to expose someone, in which case I would expect him to have said something about the stuff in his gut rather than the now less credible poisoned lunch.
2. Lead shielding would make the payload much less. Or, perhaps, these "packages" weren't properly shielded.
3. Bomb materials aren't "highly radioactive" in the same way radioactive thallium would be. I need to check on half-lives; one report said that radioactive thallium would have decayed over the week or so Litvinenko has been in the hospital. Either way, I'm skeptical about "radiation poisoning."
4. So when is someone going to get a radiation detector into that hospital? It's not like nobody in London has one.
5. When you ingest heavy metal, it typically keeps going out in the normal way. An associate of mine once swallowed some metallic mercury accidentally. The doctor said not to worry, it would just keep going out, and it did. No symptoms of mercury poisoning. Swallowing two-pence-piece-sized solid chunks is more problematic.
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...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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The hospital is now saying the X-ray shadows/solid objects were probably due to (clotted?) Prussian Blue that had been used as a sequestering agent against suspected presence of heavy metals. Could be.
But we still have to account for the radiation-poisoning-type bone-marrow destruction etc etc symptoms - and apart from Litvinenko's own statement that he suspected his condition was due to oral ingestion of a toxic substance, the symptoms could be due to other forms of exposure to intensely radioactive sources?
Remember this odd little story apparently based on an initial tip-off from Scaramella?
http://www.sgpproject.org/Personal%20Use%20Only/RUITLeCarre.html
Alexander = Sasha... Litvinenko's Russian-born but "only just" (Voronezh, 1962) and his surname is certainly ethnic-Ukrainian... so??????
But this is pretty wild surmising, OK?... also as Scaramella's credibility is in the same 1% area as Litvinenko's own so we have no way of knowing whether there was anything at all - other than some kind of con-trick - behind that story, let alone exactly what!!
So for the time being, I'll leave the wilder reaches of suitcase-nuke-conspiracism-theorising to the guys in Washington.
_________________
“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Simply taking a radiation detector to Litvinenko's body and excretions would provide a lot of answers to the questions.
_________________
...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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Russian Patriot
Joined: 22 Aug 2003
Posts: 787
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheryl wrote: | And now there's speculation it was radioactive thallium.
That would be easy enough to check out: some of the thallium must still be in Litvinenko's body, so a geiger counter would be able to tell.
But that's icing on the cake: the real question is Pavel's and Parvati's: why now?
Litvinenko was looking into the killing of Anna Politkovskaya, and he's been a critic of the Kremlin for some time. This latest might just have been the last straw.
And it's possible that agencies within the Russian government are no better coordinated than those within other governments (Italian, American...), so that a plan long in the making finally found an opportunity.
As for the Mitrokhin connection, so many conspiracies, so little time! I see he's got another book out, and I haven't even gotten to his first, which sits on my "to read" shelf...  |
Any idea why he would be investigating this in england instead of Russia? |
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Russian Patriot
Joined: 22 Aug 2003
Posts: 787
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Query Concerning Politkovskaya/ Litvinenko Cases
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/2006-262-24.cfm
| Quote: | It is possible that Litvinenko was investigating Boris Berezovsky's involvement. Berezovsky resides in the UK, and since Berezovsky is clearly interested in embarrassing and isolating the Kremlin, he may have had a motive for Politkovskaya’s murder. Politkovskaya’s murder did in fact embarrass and isolate the Kremlin. But of course, many people had possible motives for Politkovskaya’s death, and motive alone is insufficient for any conclusion. More significantly, Berezovsky was Litvinenko’s supporter. So it is unlikely that the latter was attempting to implicate the former. But if Litvinenko were not investigating Berezovsky’s involvement, then what could he possibly have learned from London that would have any importance for the Politkovskaya case?
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Litvinenko has died in hospital. BBC TV report on his death ended with the words "Scotland Yard will have to probe the shadowy world of London's Russian émigré community".
_________________
“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish |
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Latest updates:
| Quote: | Police and health experts probing the death of the Russian ex-spy Alexander Litvinenko are searching various locations for radioactive material.
Mr Litvinenko's death, in a London hospital on Thursday, has been linked to the presence of a "major dose" of radioactive polonium-210 in his body.
Tests have been carried out at two hospitals, a sushi bar and a hotel, but the risk to others is said to be low.
(...)
Police have confirmed above normal traces of radiation have been found at the sushi bar. [and according to BBC broadcast news, also at the hotel where he went before going to the sushi bar]
Professor Pat Troop from the Health Protection Agency told a news conference Mr Litvinenko would have had to either eaten, inhaled or been given the dose of polonium-210 through a wound.
Dr Troop said the HPA investigation would initially look at the number of people who had come into contact with Mr Litvinenko during his stay in hospital.
"We are working with staff to draw up a list, we are working through that," she said.
"There will be a minimum of tens of people. He was in hospital for several weeks and a number of staff looked after him."
(...)
A post mortem examination on Mr Litvinenko has not been held yet.
The delay is believed to be over concerns about the health implications for those present at the examination. |
BBC analysis: The mystery of Litvinenko's death
...
First comment is that Cheryl was 100% right to ask why the heck didn't they bring a radiation counter into the hospital to check out his radioactivity-level when they first became aware his symptoms could be pointing to radiation poisoning... ??? Seems incredible to me that they hadn't done so - I'd taken it for granted he'd been checked for live radioactivity! 
_________________
“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish
Last edited by parvati_roma on Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Who's-who info on additions to the cast: Goldfarb - Berezovsky - Lord Bell (Berezovsky's PR man) - Prof John Henry (same toxicologist who first said Yuschenko may have been poisoned with dioxin) : http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,1955863,00.html
....
And as though all that weren't enough, the Chechens are saying he was a convert to Islam:
| Quote: | Russian Defector Converted To Islam Before His Death?
Alexander Litvinenko who was poisoned in London by the FSB, a Russian secret service, for criticizing Putin and died from poisoning on Thursday night, November 23, 2004, converted to Islam some time ago, the Chechenpress news agency reported.
Before he died, Muslim rituals were perforned at his death bed. A mullah, invited from a London mosque, read the Sunnah Yasin.
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2006/11/24/6506.shtml
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“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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I've also been wondering about the reliability of the information about Litvinenko's health. Some of the reports changed so rapidly (see above) and sometimes seemed so contradictory that I wondered if the doctors knew what they were doing. Then it occurred to me that it might not be the doctors making the information available, in fact probably shouldn't be, and today the Guardian supports that suspicion.
| Quote: | The X-ray claims were the latest among a series of sometimes conflicting stories that have emerged about Mr Litvinenko's condition. A public relations campaign swung into action after his health deteriorated suddenly a week ago, a campaign that was accompanied by repeated claims that Mr Litvinenko had been the victim of a Kremlin assassination attempt.
One of London's leading public relations companies, headed by Lord Tim Bell, Lady Thatcher's former advertising consultant, fielded media queries about his condition. It also arranged for a photograph of Mr Litvinenko in his hospital to be distributed to the media via a news agency.
A leading toxicologist, Professor John Henry, was contacted by a friend of the sick Russian and spoke of his fears that the former spy had been poisoned with thallium, a heavy metal, or with a radioactive substance. Prof Henry had not been treating Mr Litvinenko, however, and the hospital said he had not seen any of the test results when he first raised his theories in media interviews.
Lord Bell's public relations consultancy is retained by Boris Berezovsky, the multi-millionaire Russian oligarch who is a friend of Mr Litvinenko. Mr Berezovsky also employs the individual who contacted Prof Henry. The professor said yesterday that he was withdrawing because he had had his "fingers burnt". |
Lots of questions here, obviously.
If it was polonium-210, then the restaurant is likely to be pretty badly contaminated, and there should be radioactive "footprints" that could almost be followed with a radiation counter to those responsible. Not to mention everything and everyone who has come in contact with material from Litvinenko's body (like hospital personnel, the toilets, etc. etc.).
Polonium-210 is so radioactive that emitting the radiation makes particles of it fly around and distribute themselves practically everywhere. It's also used in neutron generators for nuclear weapons. One of the things that got Iran in trouble with the IAEA was a series of experiments with polonium-210. So Iran would be one possible source, but Russia is quite capable of producing it too.
I have to say, though, that I'll remain skeptical of this latest explanation until I see more. The British press has been far too willing to take the word of the Berezovsky combine without identifying their sources. Who told them this latest?
And I know I'm repeating myself, but a radiation counter can easily show whether polonium-210 is the culprit or not.
_________________
...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8433
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Who told them this latest? |
Official: UK Police informed the radiation division of the UK Health Protection Agency, who then got into the act with their own experts.
Official press briefing on the radiation hazard implications by the Heath Protection Agency experts here
_________________
“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Okay. They must finally have gotten a radiation detector. But they say "traces" of Po-210 in Litvinenko's body. All of us, particularly smokers, have "traces" of Po-210 in our bodies. If it killed him, I would have expected much, much more.
_________________
...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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Pavel
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Press secretary of SVR just stated on Russian TV that he "feels sorry that Litvinenko became a bargaining chip in someone's political game."
Speaking of the London club of Russian emigrants, I can't resist the feeling that I've seen people like them before. Well, not actually seen, but read. Dostoevsky called them Demons. |
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FlorinL
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 152
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Russian Patriot wrote: | | But if Litvinenko were not investigating Berezovsky’s involvement, then what could he possibly have learned from London that would have any importance for the Politkovskaya case? |
It is understood that he [the dear Godfather] does not love your President... at all, and the brilliant timing can explain many things. Then there are also many other things, such as Poland's leadership to the friends of Russia and UE ( ), and the
sholars of Zbigniew Brzezinski in association with LNGUSA Inc vs. Nord Stream (see also Competition: UE vs America)
PS
going back to Putin vs Godfather, I heard that London is prepared to give up in a couple of weeks or so. So, don't worry.
Cheers and God save the UE-Russia friendship 
. |
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Russian Patriot
Joined: 22 Aug 2003
Posts: 787
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: Does anybody want to buy some Polonium210? This company will |
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Does anybody want to buy some Polonium210? This company will send you some for $69 and no license required!
http://www.unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm
It was hilarious watching the FoxNews gang say you can not get a hold of this stuff unless you own a nuclear power plant! |
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