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Mircea
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 93
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| johnwilkins wrote: | | marc anizan wrote: | | Exactly. Why was ABC News conducting a review of Wright's sermons? And why would Brian Ross give only half the story? Too bad these guys can't be held to account. |
Obama is not part of the neocon cabal, nor the realist cabal. They fear him becoming president. If Hillary is the nominee, you have two candidates to choose from, but the neocons win. |
And if Obama is the nominee, the neocons still win. Obama's foreign policy advisor is neo-con Tony Lake who's been part of the "cabal" since the early 1970s. Lake isn't the only neo-con on Obama's staff. Both Brzezinskis, Lawrence Korb, and Dan Shapiro are too, and there are many others.
What Obama wants to do, and what he can do, are two different things, and if he doesn't understand that now, he certainly will shortly after he's sworn in. |
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Adam_Smith
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 864
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And if Obama is the nominee, the neocons still win. Obama's foreign policy advisor is neo-con Tony Lake who's been part of the "cabal" since the early 1970s. Lake isn't the only neo-con on Obama's staff. Both Brzezinskis, Lawrence Korb, and Dan Shapiro are too, and there are many others. |
It's a fair point. Neoconservatism spreads like a sexually transmitted disease among politicians insufficiently discriminating in their associations. There were also neocons in the Reagan administration, but they didn't prevent him from pulling out of Lebanon despite an initial hard-line stance:
| Quote: | Reagan had repeatedly described the U.S. presence in Lebanon as vital to the survival of a stable government, and his administration had vigorously resisted congressional efforts to compel a withdrawal of the Marines.
On Feb. 3, Reagan had told the Wall Street Journal, in an exclusive interview, "As long as there is a chance for peace, the mission remains the same. If we get out, that means the end of Lebanon." In a barb directed at House Speaker Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill Jr. (D, Mass), Reagan had said, "He may be ready to surrender, but I'm not."
The next day, in his weekly radio address, Reagan had said the dangers of the U.S. mission in Lebanon were "no reason to cut and run." "If we do," Reagan had added, "we'll be sending one signal to terrorists everywhere: They can gain by waging war against innocent people." [LINK] |
Ultimately, however, Reagan saw that the time had come to cut his losses. In the end, withdrawal proved not only possible but popular:
| Quote: | Lawmakers Express Relief at Pullout
President Reagan's announcement of his intention to withdraw the U.S. peacekeeping force from Beirut met with widespread approval from U.S. congressional leaders Feb. 7.
House Speaker Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill Jr. (D, Mass.), who had recently distanced himself from Reagan's policy, declared, "I'm more than pleased to know the phase-out is taking place, and the speedier the better."
Senate Majority Leader Howard H. Baker Jr. (R, Tenn.) said, "I'm convinced the President has acted wisely and well given the present circumstances. The rest we'll take one day at a time."
Baker was echoed by House Minority leader Robert H. Michel (R, Ill.), who had openly urged a pullout. Michel called Reagan's action "a wise one" and added, "The important thing is that we are not simply leaving this situation before we know what is going to come out of all this turmoil.".... |
To be sure, Lebanon did not spontaneously turn into a peaceful and prosperous Jeffersonian democracy, but it wasn't about to anyhow and for the U.S., at least, there followed years of relative peace and prosperity. But for Reagan's change of mind Lebanon could have been an expensive blunder very like Bush's Iraq.
I think Obama is capable of wisdom similar to Reagan's. I don't think Hillary Clinton, who prides herself as a never-say-die fighter, has such a capacity. Even worse would be John McCain who takes Viet Nam personally and thinks redemption of national honor requires, at minimum, "victory" in Iraq if not hegemony over every presently hostile state.
See: Sometimes Honor Is Wrong -- The Problem With John McCain
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Last edited by Adam_Smith on Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mircea
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam_Smith wrote: | | I think Obama is capable of wisdom similar to Reagan's. |
I see him as more naive than wise, but he does have the same extraordinary consensus building skills that Reagan had.
| Adam_Smith wrote: | | I don't think Hillary Clinton, who prides herself as a never-say-die fighter, has such a capacity. |
She doesn't, and as a neo-liberal institutionalist, she would have no qualms about enlisting the aid of multi-national corporations to further whatever schemes she has.
| Adam_Smith wrote: | | Even worse would be John McCain who takes Viet Nam personally and is thinks redemption of national honor requires, at minimum, "victory" in Iraq if not hegemony over every presently hostile state. |
He certainly seems to, doesn't he? I never looked at it before, but now that you mention it, I think that might be an accurate characterization of McCain.
One thing that is lost on people is that Obama is operating in the absence of information. Both McCain and Clinton have been made privy to more information over the years than Obama has, so their positions are probably more closer to reality than Obama's, at least with respect to Iraq.
Should Obama be elected, watch his demeanor change over the course of the following months as he gets the bad news from his transition team. |
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matrixx8
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mircea wrote: |
One thing that is lost on people is that Obama is operating in the absence of information. Both McCain and Clinton have been made privy to more information over the years than Obama has, so their positions are probably more closer to reality than Obama's, at least with respect to Iraq.
Should Obama be elected, watch his demeanor change over the course of the following months as he gets the bad news from his transition team. |
Sounds like Lincoln, sounds like Roosevelt, sounds like Kennedy.
In any case, as usual, there's more to this story than you are apparently willing to tell.
Why Retired Military Leaders Support Obama
View From The Battlefield: Why American Veterans Are Voting Obama
| Quote: | I'm Pro-Military So I Support Obama
Frank Schaeffer | March 07, 2008
Nothing concentrates the mind about the implications of presidential policy more than having your son shot at. I'm the father of a Marine who served in Bush's wars. Until I reregistered as an independent I was a life-long Republican. If Obama is nominated he will be the first Democratic candidate for the presidency I've voted for. My support for Obama is personal but I also think it represents a potential trend.
More |
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| Quote: | "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."
-Voltaire
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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parvati_roma
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 8432
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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That's certainly true here. The huge popularity of Obama in the US has already given the US-as-a-country a huge image-boost in Europe, his winning the Democratic primaries over Hilary Clinton is taken as almost ... "fairy-tale"??.... confirmation that the US-as-a-people is still alive-n'-kicking - with hopes and aspirations not incompatible with our own.
Pity that his AIPAC investiture-grovellings have just handed Jerusalem to Israel on a silver platter though... bye-bye Arab-world, Muslim-world and Christian-world hopes for a Jerusalem with special open-city status as Sacred City of Three Great Faiths? 
Trying to maintain that maybe his AIPAC-obeissance on this issue was due to misinformation/lack of information seems weird to me - could have been applicable in the past but in the internet age it's a non-starter: five minutes' googling on the internet would have been enough to clear up possible AIPAC/NeoCon-induced misconceptions?
| Quote: | Barack Obama said in a speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee yesterday: “Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”
Compare that remark with this comment by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert published on January 1 in an interview with The Jerusalem Post: “The world that is friendly to Israel… that really supports Israel, when it speaks of the future, it speaks of Israel in terms of the 1967 borders. It speaks of the division of Jerusalem.”
(...).
The United States and other international powers do not recognise Israel’s annexation of Arab East Jerusalem following the 1967 war. The future of Jerusalem is one of the most divisive issues facing Israeli and Palestinian peace negotiators as they try to reach a deal before George W Bush leaves office in 2009. |
http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2008/06/05/obama-on-jerusalem-what-did-he-mean/
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“Against barbarity, poetry can resist only by confirming its attachment to human fragility like a blade of grass growing on a wall while armies march by.” Mahmoud Darwish |
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matrixx8
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed, I have, Cheryl. Unfortunately, the real drama of the campaign usually comes late at night over here. But, I can assure you, I was watching when Obama passed the magic mark and became the presumptive nominee.
Everywhere I turn in Europe, people are really excited about the possibility of an Obama presidency and the changes this could bring to American foreign policy.
While I understand the disappointment felt by Hillary supporters, it is hard to imagine that many of them would support McCain instead of Obama. Much will depend on the role that Hillary plays in the campaign over the next few months.
As for McCain, I confess a certain admiration. He seems like an honorable, civilized person whom the Republicans should have chosen n 2000 as their presidential candidate. Unfortunately, McCain is too close to a past that most Americans probably don't want to see repeated. Although his political ideas reflect common decency and fairness, he does not seem to grasp the economic, social and environmental issues that threaten the modern world. I cannot image how he might inspire the world to embrance democracy, shared prosperity and global peace.
President Obama might be the only person on the horizon who could do so.
_________________
| Quote: | "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."
-Voltaire
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Going back to my original intention for this thread,
US elections: Barack Obama recruits team to tackle web smears
Obama has been quick to respond to attacks from other candidates. But there has been an ugly bunch of stuff circulating on the internet.
| Quote: | Brooks Jackson, director of the Washington-based FactCheck.org, an independent academic organisation set up in 2003 to monitor the factual accuracy of statements made in elections, said yesterday there had been false rumours on the internet about George Bush and John Kerry in the 2004 election.
"With Obama, it is particularly vicious," Jackson said. He added that one of the most persistent is that Obama, a Christian, is "some kind of Muslim Manchurian candidate, planted by Islamic fundamentalists to betray the country and it is very widespread".
McCain too suffers from rumours on the internet, mainly from former Vietnam veterans disputing his account of his five-and-a-half years in a Hanoi prisoner-of-war camp. |
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Joy Harjo |
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johnwilkins
Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 4862
Location: West Coast
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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That comes straight from Obama's political roots in Chicago. The UCC, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Louis Farrakhan... he tries the soothing tone to quell it, but the questions surrounding his affiliations are legitimate. The speculation that comes up is only natural.
Same thing with McCain. His McCain-Feingold legislation, his attacks on CEOs, his total lack of an energy policy, his embrace of environmentalists, his attacks on conservatives opposed to amnesty on immigration, his efforts to preserve judicial filibusters, his argument to raise taxes in the lead up to the Iraq War, his constant carping at George Bush... it makes people wonder. So that speculation is that he was brainwashed in a Hanoi prison camp.
Do I think the worst of these guys? No, but it does leave you wondering.
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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| johnwilkins wrote: | | Do I think the worst of these guys? No... |
Tell us what you really think, John! 
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...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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As the Republican slime machine revs up...
The GOP takes aim at Michelle Obama
| Quote: | "It's exactly why I hate politics," said Republican pollster Frank Luntz. "It's wrong. It's attempting to demonize someone who is very smart, very accomplished, but not totally tuned to the dangers of political discourse."
Mark Mellman, who was Sen. John F. Kerry's pollster when he ran for president in 2004, agreed: "I think it's despicable on one hand, but to be expected on the other." |
Maureen Dowd can't even be bothered to cite by name a reference that supports the rumor she's trying to spread.
| Quote: | | So in citing the National Review as a source for the rumor Dowd conveniently neglects to mention that a reporter at that very same publication proved it wasn't true. Her second source for the rumor is "the internet." Certainly a proud moment in journalism history. From now on, when verifying facts, reporters and Op-Ed need only cite, "the internet". There isn't a diarist at Daily Kos who could get away with that, but there it is on the New York Times Op-Ed page. |
Looks like the debunking is proceeding apace. As long as it keeps up, I suspect there'll be no effective swiftboating.
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...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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marc anizan
Joined: 26 Apr 2002
Posts: 2617
Location: The Canadian Far East
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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McCain wastes no time in turning negative | Quote: | | Despite promises to stay on the higher ground, Mr McCain's commercial uses imagery to suggest that Mr Obama is a friend of America's enemies. It shows an apparently badly shaven Mr Obama looking across at the bearded face of the Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. |
The Republicans had better find a better, more creative ad agency. Stuff like this will get 'em laughed out of town.
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Cui bono?
Thus Spake JimBob |
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Maxwell
Joined: 07 May 2002
Posts: 860
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Oh it is so,so enlightening that the leftists on this board are enchanted with Barry.
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Good until I drop at last |
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Cheryl
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3932
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Obama's got a debunking website now.
Fox News anchor taken off air after Obama 'terrorist fist jab' gaffe
Yeah, right, gaffe. Clearly Hill intended to say what she said, and clearly "terrorist" is an acceptable way for Fox News to talk about anyone who disagrees with them. But maybe they got enough talkback (even from Fox News regulars?) that this kind of thing isn't acceptable.
A little progress. But I suspect the slime machine hasn't really started.
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...And when we laugh, we're indestructible.
Joy Harjo |
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marc anizan
Joined: 26 Apr 2002
Posts: 2617
Location: The Canadian Far East
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But maybe they got enough talkback ... |
MediaMatters organized a very effective write-in-and-complain to Fox campaign.
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Cui bono?
Thus Spake JimBob |
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